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Saddle Check
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Author:  Fret [ Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  Saddle Check
I checked my Gibby Studio Les Paul string spacing at the bridge and I was surprised to find irregular
string spacing easily visable if you observe that aspect specifically.. Upon close inspection I noticed the saddle notches seemed to be slightly off center.
I ended up flipping several of the saddles to get more even spacing. These are the OEM saddles and ABR1 bridge. The saddles come factory notched.

I had never looked closely at saddles on a Les Paul before so I was surprised how much string spacing was off. I was also surprised that saddles notches don't appear to be centered exactly. It was off more than I could have imagined. Now I have to intonate again.

Are saddles supposed to be centered exactly? Are they slightly off center to offer adjustability by flipping them? Am I looking at a problem or is this a part of setup? Is it common and no big deal?
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
You better post some pix.
Author:  Greg Maxwell [ Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
In my experience this is a common issue with the ABR1 bridge, as is an incorrect radius. Specifically, the radius is usually too large (flat) across the bridge saddles resulting in string buzz on the upper frets from the D and G strings. Sometimes it is necessary to flip the saddles in order to correctly intonate the string and this may help or hurt the spacing. You can buy un-notched replacement saddles and notch them yourself. I point out these issues to customers who bring me guitars with this type of bridge, and I correct the radius as part of a full setup.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Unfortunately not uncommon at all and very much indicative of the lack of quality that the current iteration of G*bson is excreting these days.... Me, I'm not opinionated....

This is the kind of thing that we shake our heads at and wonder why folks can't give a dang about what they do....

It's also not uncommon for these saddles to have microscopic burs in the slots that cause repeated string breakage. There is a cool fix for this if you are breaking strings, the same strings and they break in the same spot over the saddles.

Uniform string spacing is the goal and anything less can be a bit problematic for folks if this is not the only instrument that they play and they have to adjust to poor string spacing while playing it.

Greg makes a big point too about the lack of radius or improper radius, very common if not the norm.

High priced crap....

I believe that replacement saddles can be had that we notch ourselves which provides the opportunity just like with a mando bridge to correct string spacing and impart the desired radius and the the entire bridge is adjusted for height with the two global adjustment wheels that lower and raise the thing.

It's also pretty common for these to sink in in time in the center also losing the radius and when that happens it best to replace the entire bridge to get the radius back and not be dealing with an ever increasing, sunken G*bson bridge.
Author:  Fret [ Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Sunken bridge? I saw a bench at a cemetery that was marble. Very old. The part you sit on-pure marble- had sagged.

I was able to get proper string spacing on all but one string. I guess I need to buy some saddles.
Cutting notches is rough business. I've done nuts before but to get perfect string spacing is almost impossible.
.0005" off and you can see it with your eye...........if you look. Better not to look.
I may end up with a mix of factory notched and shade tree notched saddles.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
What often happens with these bridges too is the instrument owner does not notice the poor string spacing and one string may not be in the notch but making it's own new notch. Those string can be uppty I tell ya... :)

Yep sunken in the middle just like a century bench and for the same reasons too only in this case it's the downward pressure of the strings over time.

Let's face it the vast majority of OEM guitar parts are utter junk, cheap metal, plating as thick vapor and a fit and finish that would rival cave man creations...

I notch saddles with the Stew-Mac nut slot gauged files.

A cool trick if there is any string breakage from the saddles is to take one of the green abrasive wheels also sold at Stew-Mac for fret polishing and with it chucked in a Dr*mel (and safety glasses on...) hold a file at 45 degrees to the wheel and sharpen the wheel to a V shaped point that will fit in the saddle notches. Use a file you don't like because it will ruin it in the spot that you make contact with.

Then the wheels are excellent for polishing out microscopic burs that often exist in the saddle notches and will end string breakage in this location and for this reason. It's a very common problem with G*bson stuff that there can be burs in the saddle notches.
Author:  Fret [ Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Hesh wrote:
Let's face it the vast majority of OEM guitar parts are utter junk, cheap metal, plating as thick vapor and a fit and finish that would rival cave man creations...


I was looking closely at an ornate Harmony archtop tailpiece I have from a 1957 model made at the Harmony Chicago plant. It is a gorgeous, gawdy chrome plated tailpiece that will still polish up nicely. As I was polishing I noticed on the underside it said "made in Germany". However there was no such country as Germany in 1957. There was East and West Germany but no Germany. So this tailpiece had to be made prior to WW2 yet it still shines better than some hardware shines brand new today. I suspect Hofner made this tailpiece. I doubt you get this kind of quality hardware even on a $10.000 custom guitar today.

I have seen the future in guitar hardware and it is all Zinc(pot metal). invest in Zinc. It's the new Gold. All you gotta do is plate it gold, chrome. Polish a turd another wurds.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
LOL! Germany post WWII was a bit like Korea today where one side or the other ignores the existence of the other side until it is time to rattle a saber or shift blame elsewhere....

I think that you're right, Fret and although top dollar stuff in the guitar industry continues to be more and more expensive, G*bson did a 29% price increase last year and the bottom stuff seems to find new ways to be even cheaper. Kind of like if crap could crap.... :)

Harmony guitars of that era can be pretty cool. Just the switches and knobs alone, often bak-o-lite can be pretty cool looking too! There are lots of folks in our area who buy them off eb*y and then want us to do what it takes to make them giggable.

When I was a kid these things were considered junk... :roll: :D Now they are coveted by some and I suspect that I'm one of them too.

Teisco a brand often sold in five and dime stores..... (haven't heard that term in a long time..) were pretty much the bottom of the bottom feeders back then too. $69 got you a three pup, stratlike sunburst ax and these are desirable these days as well.

Wish I had saved my garbage because in enough time someone would want to buy it.... :)
Author:  Fret [ Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Gibson can't raise their prices unless others do too. I've seen prices go up just so far this year. Supposedly our inflation rate has been around 3% for 6 years yet why has a can of tuna doubled
from 39 cents to 79 cents?

Most of Gibson bridges and tail pieces are plated Zamak which is a fairly good Zinc alloy far better than Pot Metal which s what the old nearly pure Zinc was 50 years ago. However I've seen Pot Metal Allen screws in Chinese made guitars lately that were junk. They were genuine Pot Metal which I thought had been phased out but the Chinese can make some cheap stuff. Never buy Chinese made wall board. Chinese window blinds look great and are cheap but they have high lead content. Extremely high lead content. Wash your hands if you raise the blinds. Never let children touch blinds.

I notice Gibson sells Aluminum bridge and tail piece hardware in more models now.

Gibson also went to composite Richlite fret boards on custom shop guitars. Pro musicians don't get hassled at airport custom checks with Richlite fret boards. They might be held at customs with an Indian Rosewood fret board.
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
You're right Hesh. I've gotten a few Harmony guitars off eBay. Yep they all needed working on except one. A nice old two gold foil model. Of course it didn't have anything on it but the knobs. But one of the easiest played guitars I've ever owned. Has the blender pot it's a super cool setup. A real Jazz type guitar. I love my Harmonies. Those of us know those guitars were made out of the same pile of lumber as then Gibbys and Martins. Well maybe not the same pile. Nearly all the acoustics are solid mahogany backs and sides. Nice spruce tops and BRW fretboards and bridges. Yep it's hard for a guitar man not to like them.


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Author:  Fret [ Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Lonnie J Barber wrote:
You're right Hesh. I've gotten a few Harmony guitars off eBay. Yep they all needed working on except one. A nice old two gold foil model. Of course it didn't have anything on it but the knobs. But one of the easiest played guitars I've ever owned.


I was going to use the H65 Harmony tailpiece on my Casino until I saw it was much wider than the Trapeze tailpiece. The strings are much further apart. If you added a 7th string to a Casino that is how wide the string spacing is. The Harmony has string spacing 10mm wider at the tailpiece.
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
I wouldn't know that fret but will accept your summation. I cheated on my Hollywood I put a Gold Bigsy on mineImage I hope this picture comes out


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Author:  Fret [ Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Is that an H73? Looks early 60s. That is a rare guitar you have. That is probably worth $2k
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Well the only thing original to the guitar is the tone and volume knobs. Everything else is period. Except for the Bigsby. The pickups were advertised as 1959. The guitar is supposed to be an h-39. A fairly rare one as they all had only one gold foil pickup. Now with that said I've read that the only thing rare about a Harmony was a person who collects them. [FACE WITH STUCK-OUT TONGUE AND WINKING EYE] I don't know the value other then what I've got in it. As I replaced the tuners with a nice gold set of Schallers. The pots were not useable and it has a blender pot that is cool as all get out. The fretboard is hard maple with the markers and stuff painted on. I have a plethora of guitars. A bunch of old ones and some new ones as well. This is the easiest of all my guitars to play. I'm still experimenting with the tones checking out the sounds. It's definitely a jazz guitar. I wish I could get a couple thousand for it. But I think about 700 is the max I could expect.


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Author:  Hesh [ Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Pretty cool ax Lonnie and the gold bixby looks cool too. Love the pups with the gold foil covering, very cool!!

In the acoustic world there are still lots of old Harmony Sovereigns out here and they can sound and play rather amazing once the neck is reset, fret work upgraded, etc.
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Thanks Hesh. Yes I know all about the old solid wood Harmonies. I've got about six acoustics,a couple solid bodies a Mandolin and a soprano ukulele. All Chicago made. They're lots of fun. Everyone,except for this one shown has neck reset issues. The worse problem is how dry the wood on the guitars are. The fretboards I've seen are so dry it's a wonder the frets haven't fallen out. Well Maybe not that bad.
One thing I don't understand they went to the trouble of radiusing the fretboards but not the saddle.


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Author:  Fret [ Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Harmony was the Gibson of the 1st half of the 20th century.
My 1957 H65 archtop Maple is in two pieces but the wood is in good shape. No cracks.
Harmonys are very rare now because they were guitars from the jazz age so when the 1960s rockers tried to gig with them they started removing pickups. They started modding these jazz beauties for rock. Few examples survived the 1960s rock era surgeries that were performed on them.
My H65 has Fender control knobs and a aftermarket pickup.
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Saddle Check
Fret do you mean that it was a top glued together from two pieces? Like we do today? The reason I ask is I have a kayenstein (Frankenstein)guitar from the forties. The body anyway is a Kay. I bought it off the bay just as a body in pieces basically. I put a neck on it. Now this Kay has bound F-holes. I've searched the Internet and have yet to find another Kay body 17"wide at the lower bout with bound F-holes. When I got the win on the auction I talked to the seller and he says it had been in his family for years and when in much better shape had musical notes as position markers. Well I did find a guitar with musical notes for position markers but it didn't have bound F holes. Close but no cigar. The reason I brought this guitar up is I believe it to be a solid top and solid back. No center seam. The Harmony guitars have a solid mahogany back. I counted the rings on one side of one of my Harmony spruce top. In a 7 1/2 strip I counted over 300 rings. So as I figure it the tree the top of that guitar was made from was least 300 years old. I think that's how that works. You can see the wet periods and the dryer periods written in the rings.


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Author:  Fret [ Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Saddle Check
Lonnie I mean I have the neck and the body. I decided not to attempt to reglue the neck because I have no previous experience with dove joints and this guitar has already been reglued before by a real Bubba. I need to find a guy locally who has experience with vintage acoustics.
I saw an H65 for $1200 on ebay recently.

The problem is that everytime I get the $$ to reglue the neck and restore the Harmony I instead buy a newer used guitar. There are really good deals on fantastic guitars under $400 right now which is what it would cost to restore my H65.

I just got a Casino w/case for $390

As far as the 300 year old wood in your Harmony: It may have sat curing for 40 years in addition. The wood is like nothing you can afford to buy today.
My Harmony is very old Maple where as I bought a cheapy Squier recently with an all Maple neck that looked very young like it was cut down from a poached Maple in a city park in Shanghai last week.

I think I may try to trade this Harmony as is. Ive had it 15 years.

Update!

I finished the saddes tonight on my LP Studio. I got the spacing absolutely perfect. Polished the notches and intonated. I have the strings located correctly(according to Stewmac) over the pole pieces and there is space to avoid the prob of the high E slipping off the fret board. This job was 5 hours but it was my 1st steel saddle bridge attempt.
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Saddle Check
I agree that for some reason H162's are on eBay in abundance. They mostly all need a reset. However,the one I did a reset on didn't require any wood removal. I just glued some hard maple to the sides and back,of the Mortise,then using gun smithing techniques I inletted the neck in the correct position. I had good string height. What I saw was an extremely loose mortise and tenon joint. They used a bunch of glue and clamps. The neck having a steel bar didn't warp. The glue got old and gave way is all.


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